User talk:Emerald2010

I have not put much into the summary box; I have been adding translations and editing a few things; I had at first a little trouble navigating the wikipage, and had a few typing errors in the process - also because I had been doing various languages - but I am getting used to working with these files now. I am multi-tasking on computers, so occasionally I take a print-out home to confirm correct contributions. I will continuously go over all I have done, and will add to summaries once done. I have some more translations where script conversions are necessary and will add as soon as possible. I consider the better conveying of meaning in translations, and add things where necessary accordingly. For any questions on my translations please contact me.

--Emerald2010 21:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Using standard Church terms

Although I value any constructive input on language translations, and some revisions done would be quite correct - and I am not above having mistakes corrected - using English words and making them sound like another language is not doing translations. All my translations are done with keeping in mind "terms used in the church" and conveying true meaning.

If Anglizised terms are preferred, you do not need a professional translator like me to work on this project. I have asked previously to be contacted if there were any questions, so I shall repeat that same request here.

--Emerald2010 07:09, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, and for all your efforts to help with the translation of these terms. I had not seen your earlier post here on your User talk page, so I was unaware of your request "For any questions on my translations please contact me." Since I made my recent changes without contacting you, I can certainly understand how that might have been frustrating to you. Now that I am aware of your request, I will attempt to help you understand why those changes were made.

The changes I recently made to the German translation (which you have subsequently reverted) were not made by "using English words and making them sound like another language." Rather, I was using the terms that are actually used in the Church by tens of thousands of German speakers, and which are consistently used in handbooks, manuals, websites, and many other published materials. You do not seem to be familiar with the German phrases used for these standard Church terms. There are many examples of this, but I will illustrate with one specific example.

The Relief Society is an existing organization. On LDS.org (the Church's main web site) you can see it described at Relief Society. On the German version of lds.org, that same organization is described at Frauenhilfsvereinigung. In your translation, you used the term "Erleichterung Gesellschaft." If you look at the term "relief society" independent of the actual organization of the Church, that could certainly be a reasonable translation. But the fact remains that there is no organization called "Erleichterung Gesellschaft." For German-speaking members of the Church, there is only the "Frauenhilfsvereinigung" and any other term might communicate a similar meaning, but would not refer to the actual organization. If a German speaker in the Church were to see the abbreviation EG, she would have no idea what it refers to, but FHV is immediately recognized as referring to that organization.

I do not know if you are a member of the LDS Church. If you are, you must not have any experience with the Church in any German-speaking country, or you would not even begin to consider any term other than "Frauenhilfsvereinigung." If you are not a member of the LDS Church, then I am curious what motivates you to spend so much time on this translation page. You are clearly a very talented translator in multiple languages. I assume you make your living doing translations, but you are volunteering your time on this wiki with no hope of any payment. That is very kind of you, and we greatly appreciate your contribution. But for your efforts to be truly helpful, they need to fit in with the very large body of existing translations.

Please help me understand why you are doing these translations. That will help us come to a common understanding so that these translations can be done in a way that will communicate effectively to German speakers who will be using the tools that incorporate these translations. -- Aebrown 11:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate you writing me, and yes, the reason I reverted without question the changes to the German translation is because I was not consulted in any way. I have put much time and thought into what the church is trying to express to peoples of the world, which is conveyed in much of what I have contributed to LDSTech.

I will attempt to explain some things.

I understand there are terms currently used in the church, however there are terms which are English and have been made to sound like another language, and although you might be right in stating that you were using these terms, you are wrong in stating they are not English versions. This use of language has been happening for decades wih various other things as well. When I was in college - in several European countries - there was a continuing debate on the use of Anglizised terms, especially in Dutch; this mortifies professors, scholars and linguists alike, and I for one do not agree with this incorrect use of language. I shall add that my test scores were straight 10's on these subjects. And to clarify another thing as well, I am a native speaker of several of these languages.

One example in church terms is 'general'; in German it means a high officer - for the church term 'general {conference}' 'allgemeine' would be correct. Also, Dutch is related to German and was much derived from it, so you can see similarities between them. Note that I did not make corrections with the terms of various other laguages on the bottom of the Wikipage - most of which I understand - as some of these are Latin-based languages with similar terms to English. Deutsch and Dutch are different from these, and should not be Anglizised; they are existing languages with their own vocabularies. When I look at some of the edits done, it is very clear to me most are done by non-native speakers and those who are not educated in the language at hand. I understand my translations can be edited, and I agreed to those terms, however I think the church is served better by having a healthy discussion on which terms should be - or remain - adopted, and which terms do not convey meanings and intentions of the church.

When I became involved with this project, I was kindly asked by Tom Johnson - as you can see on my profile page - to introduce myself with some information as to who I am and my contributions. I did so immediately, and provided links to my profile and full qualifications. For some reason some do not bother finding out much more, so I will add some things here. I am proficient in the following languages: Frysk, Dutch, Yiddish, Deutsch, Arabic, Norsk, French, Latin, English, Ladino, Farsi, Afrikaans, Turkish, Greek, Dansk, Hebrew, Scottish Gaelic, Finnish, Mandarin, Russian, Svensk, Punjabi, Diets, Korean, Vietnamese, Swahili, Japanese, Romanian, Czech, Hungarian, Tagalog, Cantonese, Spanish, Pashto, Dari, Bulgarian, Italian, Ukrainian - and then some; the first several are my native languages (I grew up with). I am at varying levels with some, and only take on jobs and projects I know I am capable of.

I see others 'correcting' my translations without me being able to tell as to their qualifications and a way to discuss what would be best for the church. I am volunteering my time, and all I ask for is respect given the many hours I am putting in to assist with this very valuable project.

I am a member - in good standing - of the church, and my motivations are because I value much of what the church is doing around the world, and because I love languages. To say I must not have any experience with church terms in any German-speaking country seems strange to me. With all due respect, but if the church already has made up its mind about terms - even incorrect ones - what do you need me for? I am by the way planning and working on contacting Salt Lake City about some of the issues at hand. Many languages 'adopt' terms based upon another language if there is no existing word in their vocabulary, and some words are made by connecting existing words to convey meaning, (such as the 'FHV' you mention), although for example this would be far more common - and acceptable - in Dutch than in German. This does not mean anything goes, and to tell you the truth - as a native speaker - some of the words in use make me cringe.

If the church and LDSTech pleases, I can translate - and work with - at the very least the following languages on this Wikipage: Arabic, Bulgarian, Chinese (simplified), Czech, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, Hungarian, Icelandic, Indonesian, Lao, Norwegian, Romanian, Swahili, Swedish, Ukrainian, Vietnamese, German, (and some others which were already done), but we can stay focused on the ones which were blank when I became involved. If there is any concern as to my motivations I am more than happy to put you in touch with people in my ward: my Bishop, or President Fewkes of the Stake - people who know me well and can vouch for my intentions. I have several 'callings' in my ward, and one was especially tailored for me - as I started doing this on my own, before my Bishop put me in charge - because it was deemed a right fit for me: I take care of all Missionary updates in my ward, both Missionaries from our Ward serving elsewhere - including plaques and postings on bulletin boards - as well as Missionaries who serve in our ward. I am making mention of this to convey my concerns with the church and to provide you with a better understanding as to my motivations.

I will obviously not continue to undo things on the Wikipage if there are terms greatly desired by the church, but please understand that in terms of respect it would be greatly appreciated if anyone who makes corrections on my work would also clarify themselves in terms of qualifications and reasons why, as with the many languages I can contribute to, it is taking much of my time volunteered to assist in this project. Anyone who wishes to contact me can do so, and I will kindly respond to any inquiries.

--Emerald2010 21:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation of your background; that is very helpful to me in this discussion. I had indeed taken the time to research your resume, and that's why I noted that you are "a very talented translator in multiple languages." I could find no reference in your resume or your user page in this wiki that gave any clue that you were a member of the Church, which led to my uncertainty. I apologize if my question was offensive; it is indeed helpful to know that you are a member who is earnestly striving to help move this work forward.

I am a native English speaker who served a two-year mission in Germany and continued German studies at a university after returning from my mission. My experience in the realm of translation involves extensive managerial and executive direction of software development at a large software company; those efforts required translation of software and documentation into many languages.

In my work with software translation it was essential that we followed a key practice which is also followed by translators employed by the Church: a set of terms key terms was chosen, and in each target language, a standard translation for those key terms would be decided upon and then consistently applied. In the software world, this was essential, because it would be hopelessly confusing for our users if an element in the software was clearly labeled as "X" but the documentation referred to that element as "Y", even if "X" and "Y" are synonyms or both reasonable translations of the name for the element in the base language.

Similarly, in the Church, there are terms for which translations in various languages were determined long ago. To repeat my earlier example, you will find the German term "Frauenhilfsvereinigung" in websites, handbooks, manuals, pamphlets, door plaques, administrative software, building signs, etc. Is that term the very best German translation for the organization called in English "Relief Society"? I don't know, but the answer to that question really doesn't matter for the task of translating the Gospel Library user interface, which is the task at hand. The only German translation that is at all useful for Gospel Library is one that matches German-speaking users' common expectation of what those terms are. In the case of Relief Society, that translation is unquestionably "Frauenhilfsvereinigung."

You mentioned that you were planning on contacting Church headquarters to propose improvements in the standard translations of some of these terms. If you succeed in that effort, then the standard terms will change, and I would then agree 100% that the terms in Gospel Library should also change to match those new standard terms. But until then, the translations for Gospel Library must match the standard translations.

You asked, "With all due respect, but if the church already has made up its mind about terms - even incorrect ones - what do you need me for?" That's a good question. I am very familiar with the standard German terms, and so although I am not a professional translator, I am perfectly capable of researching and inserting those terms in the appropriate places on the translation page. For languages with established translations of those terms, that is the work that is needed -- not new translations. I do not know which of the many languages on the translation page already have standardized translations. But your great skills in translation would best be employed in doing actual translation for languages that currently lack those translations, rather than looking up terms that have already been translated.

-- Aebrown 23:07, 18 March 2012 (UTC)