Not Receiving Emails

Discussions around miscellaneous technologies and projects for the general membership.
ambldsorg
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:44 am

Re: Not Receiving Emails

#31

Post by ambldsorg »

caillines wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:31 am This is what I have to do for a few of our stake leaders whose gmail addresses reject every email the church system sends them.
I presume you're referring to the return email that you get back that says "The recipients below were rejected by the server.", right? Well, what's missing from that report is which server rejcted it.

I don't think that Gmail is rejecting all these emails. While Gmail has it's own problems, I think it's more likely that the Church's own blacklist is responsible for a persistent rejection policy of emails.

viewtopic.php?t=45138

It's possible that Gmail rejected one or two messages as they are wont to do, but this then triggered an addition to the Church's suppression list at Amazon SES.
ambldsorg
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Re: Not Receiving Emails

#32

Post by ambldsorg »

garystroble wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:51 pm Basically the system the Church is using to send emails is not working, whether anyone is willing to admit it there or not and fix it is the question.
The system that they are using for sending emails is Amazon SES and it does in fact have a suppression list and once your email address is on the Church's suppression list, you will no longer be able to receive emails from your Ward or Stake. You will, however, continue to receive other "official" emails from other Church departments that are not using mail.churchofjesuschrist.org. For example, you should get those from @message.ChurchofJesusChrist.org because it does not use Amazon SES for sending emails. Instead it appears to be using a service from Adobe/Marketo. Maybe they are working towards migrating to this other system and that's why there's no incentive to fix the current deliverability problems.

viewtopic.php?t=45138
ambldsorg
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Re: Not Receiving Emails

#33

Post by ambldsorg »

russellhltn wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:15 pm Does your husband use the same email domain? I find yours to be rather unusual. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the church is having an issue sending to that domain.
Well, that's not so unusual. We know that thousands of members are using Gmail and they receive them just fine. Then we also know that there are numerous members who are also using Gmail and they do not receive them, and in fact, the LCR system reports that they were "rejected by the server". And that this rejection appears to be permanent for that subset of email addresses. Is this likely to be Gmail that is causing this? Yahoo, or Hotmail, or any other email provider?
russellhltn
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Re: Not Receiving Emails

#34

Post by russellhltn »

ambldsorg wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2025 8:58 pm It's possible that Gmail rejected one or two messages as they are wont to do, but this then triggered an addition to the Church's suppression list at Amazon SES.
One of the ways to get labeled a spammer is to keep sending emails to an address you've been told isn't good. If GMail is rejecting, then the problem is on them. The servers are taking the message at face value.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

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ambldsorg
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Re: Not Receiving Emails

#35

Post by ambldsorg »

russellhltn wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 12:34 am One of the ways to get labeled a spammer is to keep sending emails to an address you've been told isn't good. If GMail is rejecting, then the problem is on them. The servers are taking the message at face value.
But why is a legitimate email address "not good"? Why would Gmail tell mail.churchofjesuschrist.org that an address that is good everywhere else is "not good" when it comes from the Church and then proceed to treat it as a spammer?

It really depends on the reason for why it wasn't good. There are two types of email rejection. A 4XX level rejection which is considered a temporary failure, and a 5XX level rejection which is considered permanent. If Gmail returns a 4XX then the MTA will retry delivery for some period of time. If Gmail returns 5XX then that tells the sending MTA that retry delivery will fail, however, that doesn't mean that the human who receives the DSN (aka bounce message) cannot read the reason for the failure, figure out the problem, and resend it.

Accordingly, not all types of failures are the same and not all 5XX mean that the address should never be used again. For example, if someone attaches a 100MB zip file to an email and sends it to Gmail it will be permanently rejected with a 5XX level error due to size. Does this mean that the recipient email address should not ever be used again? What it means is that if the sender tries again to send a 100MB message it won't work. There are numerous reasons for 5XX type error messages, none of which mean "never send an email to this address ever again".

Keep in mind that we're talking about "working" email addresses. They work everywhere else but with LCR. We know that the addresses are legitimate and do not result in 5XX failures in general because the member is actively using them with other communicants. It's not like members have signed up for their Church accounts using email addresses that are bogus and would result in eternal 5XX failures. Even if the Church has a policy of automatically suppressing delivery to addresses that receive a 5XX failure, for whatever reason, they should at least offer an option to the members to remove their email address from purgatory. This could be a button in the Church Account pages.

While Gmail is really the worst for email problems among all the big providers, I don't believe at all that Gmail has selectively decided to permanently reject emails from some Church members for failures that resulted from temporary or otherwise transient reasons. I think it's more ilkely that the problem exists elsewhere.

Unfortunately, what we're dealing with in these discussions are 2 large organizations (3 if you include Amazon SES) which have made it difficult to communicate with their patrons which doesn't make it easy to resolve problems. Has any "customer" of Gmail ever contacted Gmail and asked them if they are blocking communications sent from the Church to their email address? What was the response? I've contacted the Church via GSD about why the messages are being rejected and I have gotten no straight answer, only misdirections (check your mailbox size, check that mail.churchofjesuschrist.org is whitelisted, check this, check that), but nobody has ever given me a positive confirmation (or denial) that my email address is not on the Church's Amazon SES suppression list.
mdigi
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:39 am

Re: Not Receiving Emails

#36

Post by mdigi »

I mentioned this before [not sure if in this thread or another], but be sure to send LCR messages using DIFFERENT SUBJECT lines for each message.

Blasting out a weekly email with subject "Ward Bulletin" will quickly run into issues with Outlook/Hotmail [& others?] where the message doesn't hit the recipient's Inbox or Spam box. It's silently dropped somewhere along the line. However requesting the clerk send with a subject like "Ward Bulletin 1/25/2025", "Ward Bulletin 2/1/2025" -- something different between LCR emails has effectively resolved the issue for my Hotmail account.
russellhltn
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Re: Not Receiving Emails

#37

Post by russellhltn »

In the case of gmail, something users can try is add a plus sign to their email. So, instead of "JDoe", use "JDoe+lds". There's a fair chance it will be seen as a different email address by any blacklist, but Google ignores everything after the plus sign and will deliver it to the same email box.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
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